Wednesday, July 08, 2009

Oh, the DRAMA

Sofa is such a drama queen.

"Oh! You gods, why do you make us love your goodly gifts, and snatch them straight away?"

Yeah yeah. Tell it to the judge.

I am Cashew. I am the judge.

See how serious looking I am?

As you can see, Sofa has recovered perfectly from his near drowning of last week (:eyeroll:).

However, he has lately come to display a brand new behaviour that neither Mr. Pickles, nor anyone else at the park, appreciates. It's kind of complicated, so I'll see if I can explain it in simple terms ...

Oh yes, here we go.
The Sofa is an asshole.

He has taken up a new hobby of being a randomly aggressive nincompoop and getting quick tempered with other dogs. As near as I can figure it appears to be a form of 'possession aggression.' The things he found valuable enough to aggress over today include: dad's truck, a stick, my pocket (where cookies sometimes live) and occasionally whatever dog he was currently playing with. Normally the Sofa is a very goofy guy who enjoys playing games my dogs find abhorrant, like ear tugging and wrestling, grappling over toys and "chase me" games.

This is the "normal" Sofa, playing gently with an 8 week old Lab puppy (so cute, right?)

But as of just lately, he has been fighting with other dogs (never people) over resources and perceived insults. Is this common in dobermans? Is it a function of his oncoming maturity? Any suggestions for nipping it in the bud, so to speak?

You all were so helpful with the recall issue, maybe you have some insights for Mr. Pickles.

Who needs to GET OUT OF THE SHOT, PICKLES!! Yeesh. He's as bad as Tweed!

Speaking of the recall, I was interested to hear all your suggestions and insights. Someone asked how The Food Lady would work on this problem, and I was sort of surprised that nobody offered anything similar to the approach I would take.

Liam's recall issue is not a "fear" of coming when called, nor is it a communication problem - eg., it's not that Liam does not understand his recall command, but rather that he chooses to disregard it in favour of his freedom. To me, this makes Liam a very smart dog - one who can make decisions on his own. But it also makes him a frustrating dog, especially if you're in a hurry, or he escapes the leash in a dangerous situation. That's why in my world, "come" is not negotiable*.

*unless you're Mr. Woo. Because if you are Mr. Woo, you look like this and therefore, are immune to all directives:

Over the last decade, I have fostered a couple hundred border collies, and I have without fail taught every one of them a fairly reliable recall within about two days. And I have done this using the age old art of putting pressure on the dog.

Pressure is the language that a working dog understands. There's a reason Open handlers don't clicker train their sheepdogs - for centuries, shepherds have used pressure to make their dogs understand what they want and need them to do. When a dog is working sheep, he is putting pressure on the sheep, and the shepherd is putting pressure on the dog, and the dog is constantly adjusting his stance, pace and position in relation to the pressure of the environment he's working in - gates, fences, escape routes, panels etc. Border collies are very sensitive to pressure of all kinds, and it's pretty easy to make it work for you.

When I teach a dog a recall, I loose him somewhere and let him do his thing for a bit, and then I call him, ONCE. If he does not immediately respond, I then proceed to "walk the dog down." Purposefully, and silently, I walk straight toward the dog - I do not run, I walk. I do not change my pace, and I do not get angry and I do not yell - I simply walk. If the dog goes left, so do I. If he skips off to the right, so do I. If he takes off in the other direction, so do I. I am relentless in my pursuit of the dog. But usually I only need to be relentless for a couple of minutes, because pretty soon, the dog always - ALWAYS - stops. Usually he lies down and waits for me to reach him. This is pressure - the dog feels the pressure of me coming for him, and succumbs to that pressure. Border collies were bred to be very sensitive to this.

When I reach the dog, I take his collar and say nothing. I lead him back to where I originally called him from, sit him down and look him in the eye, and quitely repeat "come." Then I loose him again. Almost without fail, the next time I issue the recall, the dog comes flying back to me as fast as he can, to avoid the pressure of being "walked down" again. Then I throw a party for the dog's success and rewards aplenty are issued - praise, food, a toy or whatever it is the dog likes.

I've found over the years that this only takes 2 or 3 repeats over 1 or 2 days before I can reliably have the dog coming to me on the first command every time. They are smart dogs, and they learn quickly how to avoid the consequence of not coming when called. I suppose that in the vogue of positive reinforcement, this would be something negative, but I have to stress that it is not punishment. My dogs LOVE to come when called, and they LOVE the praise they receive for it. But they instincitvely understand pressure, and yield to is appropriately, as they were bred to do.

Interestingly, toward the end of our photo shoot, Liam's mum got annoyed with her dancing-out-of-reach wayward canine and without knowing she was even doing it, she walked him down. She walked him down straight into the Fraser River, where he sat down, and then he lied down, and then he walked up to her and did a *perfect* front-finish sit and let her put his leash on.

Oh Liam knows what a recall is, there have just been too many rewards for ignoring it, and not enough consequences for disobeying it ;-)

Did you call me?

You know, faces like this: NOTHING to abate my puppy lust. NOTHING.

This one didn't help either.

Oh and look what else I saw! An Irish Setter. I didn't even know they made those anymore.

Thanks to you all who offered to help be Cataxis for a day to get Donut's American cousins over the border. It looks like we have all the legs in place and as of Saturday night, the kitteny goodness will be upon us!

Donut has her own song (as do all my pets). It goes:

You've got kitteny goodness
So much kitteny goodness
You've got kitteny goodness
In those kitteny eyes!

I realize it makes no sense, but she likes it when I sing it to her. I think. It's hard to tell with these damn cats.

I hope you're all ready for some kitteh pictures!!

Also, on Saturday I hope to be in Laidlaw, BC (there's a sentence I never thought I'd say!) at the ASC of BC Stockdog Trials. I'm hoping to take photos of Aussies doing their thang. There'd better not be any puppies there! Come on by if you're in the area and say hello! The Trio Of Terrible will be with me. Mr. Woo wants to get in touch with his Aussie roots.


Buzz's Food Lady said...

About Sofa: You know, sometime in the 6 month to 12 month window, Buzz went through an asshole-to-other-dogs stage. Of course, Buzz is smart, so this quickly became be-an-asshole-to-dogs-that-won't-asshat-back stage (AKA, pick on puppies). My trainer said it was fine and was a stage, but that the important thing was to keep it from becoming a habit, because then it wouldn't be a stage. So, for a few months there I had to keep Buzz 100% away from puppies and from dogs who lack the moxie to correct assholes. Paid off, though, Buzz is now super sweet to all doggies!

In other news, I am ready for kittens!

Lexi, Qwill, Shiner and Trophy said...

As to the Sofa's issue we have a BC mix who is doing this at work (I work at a doggie day care)

Her name is Stella, she is 6 months old, terribly smart, and my coworkers are too quick to punish and lax in praise.

I think some of her problem is that she's testing her bounds and finding her spot in the "pack" that exists at work. She likes to sneak attack the more skittish dogs (regardless of size, she went after a German Shepard and a full grown Dobe once) grab them by the ears and goes in for the growling/screaming kill.

The key with her was to work on stopping her before she gets to that point, and rewarding her at an ultra high rate for being good/calm.

So I started calling her approx. every 30 seconds and rewarding liberally for that and any offered behaviors.

She will (usually) start maniacally barking before she attacks, so I worked on squelcing all barking outbreaks from her, by trying to call her to me to reward her and with a squirt from squirt bottle if the initial call didn't work and she was elevating towards an attack.

it's working well so far!

I don't have any experience with Dobe puppies, and very little with Dobe adults, but i hope you can get it under control before he finds it so self-rewarding that it's near-impossible to break. I'm not too worried. :)

Flo said...

I wasn't signed in for my last comment- I was the anon at 2:24 PM on the Big Air Anywhere post.

I've only ever owned/worked with bird dogs and bird dog crosses. Walking them down doesn't work. They think you're slowly following their hunt, and will continue to hunt in front of you so long as they can see you, which is why I suggested dropping out of sight or using an ecollar to make being out a little less fun that being with you.

We tried walking down one dog when the ecollar cut out while she was chasing birds- not so much because we expected it to work, but because we didn't want to lose her. She followed those damn birds through four 500 to 600 acre fields, and thankfully the birds looped back near to the start point and the dog went to flop in the shade of the truck.

She was very glad to see us when we finally trudged in after her, as she was very thirsty, but there was no remorse, no stress, no pressure felt on her end. As far as she was concerned, we had all enjoyed a great long hunt together, and it was rather too bad she hadn't caught us a bird.

I had never thought about the differences between how the dog would react to being stalked based on how they were bred to interact with the human. I'm certainly one of those people who knows a Border Collie is likely more dog than I could live with, so I follow your blog to see what your crew gets up to. That, and Angry Donut's occasional cameo makes me smile.

Never had an asshole pup, so I'm hoping other have ideas for the Sofa.

The Border Collies said...

"'ve only ever owned/worked with bird dogs and bird dog crosses. Walking them down doesn't work. They think you're slowly following their hunt, and will continue to hunt in front of you so long as they can see you, which is why I suggested dropping out of sight or using an ecollar to make being out a little less fun that being with you."

Oh I TOTALLY agree. It won't work for every dog, which is why it doesn't work for Woo - he's not a border collie! He does not have the same sense of pressure that my other two dogs have at all ... he does respond to it, but he responds to it like an Aussie - he runs AT me, bounces off my chest or face, and then takes off again, with The Flamboyance waiving in the breeze. :) Little orange bastard!!!

Natalie said...

Hahaha at your description of Woo's reaction to pressure. God I wish pressure worked with german shepherds. Like you said, though, works beautifully for border collies. I just do it instinctively, and they sure do react.

Carol said...

I'll hazard a suggestion for The Sofa/Asshole. Recall him regularly while at dog parks/beaches and reward that, then have him go through several obedience commands or tricks before he is released to go back to play. If S/A knows he is not the boss, but Daddy Pickles is, then he needn't try to control the situation.

And neuter The Sofa NEXT WEEK!

I can't wait for the kitteh pics! And don't forget: MORE DONUT!

erin said...

I was all excited to read your way of teaching recall and thinking I would try that with my Border Collie / Aussie Shepherd cross but then I read your last comment about how Woo responds and that is *exactly* how Maia reacts to me. Do you have any suggestions that have worked with Woo and his recall? It is one area I am definitely having trouble with, and I am financially strapped for a few months so cannot get any obedience training in beyond what I do myself. Thanks!

Stephanie said...

I have a doberman bitch who was food/possession aggressive towards other dogs from almost day one. I have no idea if it's actually a breed thing or just a some dogs thing, but here's how we've dealt with it.

First note -- this is the most food motivated dog I've ever seen. She thinks food is the GREATEST THING ever, second only to PEOPLE BEING AROUND. Lots of nice things there to help.

With her, we regularly set up situations where the sight of another dog getting a toy/food/etc meant she was going to get a treat. So, for example, we'd give our poodle a treat, then immediately give her one. At first, we had to do this at some distance to keep her from having EVIL FACE, but after a while, she was fine with dogs getting treats right next to her. Now, she'll actually pull back and be fine with dogs who are literally trying to steal the treat from the hand that comes near her (obviously, we don't let other dogs do that).

After we really really laid the foundation for that, we added in carefully the fact that if she guarded, she lost it. I kept a very close eye on her because guarding is something that means they're afraid of losing what they've got, and I didn't want to make it worse. However, since I had already taught her how she should get what she wanted, she knew how to manipulate the system, so to speak.

She's still a bitch about tennis balls and other toys, but that's mostly because we've not done the same work there. We'll need to, but it wasn't as urgent as food was. At this point though, I can't remember the last time she got snarky over food, even with really pushy dogs around. And she can even lick out a pan with her nemesis the poodle.

Email me if you're looking for more details (we're local to you too) -- stejacks at gmail dot com. :)

StefRobrts said...

Let me assure you that walking them down does NOT work on eskimos either (and not working on Woo just solidifies my belief that he has some eskie in him). At least it sure as heck doesn't work on mine. They couldn't care less, and they think it's great if you want to come follow them around and play keep away. They'll come when they're good and ready and not a moment sooner. After a year and a half of work with long leads, lots of treats, clickers, and practicing every chance we get, he's 75% or better, and that's a lot better than I ever got my older eskie to do. I'll take what I can get.

I went with another eskimo because I thought a BC would be too hard, after everyone warning me about how smart and active and driven they can be. Now I think I should have got a BC, because an eskimo is all that, but without the desire to please, or any sense of remorse for failing you - they are just mindlessly joyful in doing their own thing.

Barb said...

I was really interested to read your account of using pressure to teach a recall... I used to use that same method to teach horses to let us catch them. Not exactly a recall, but just teaching them to not run away when they see someone coming carrying a halter. And if they DID come, they got bonus treats! It worked quite well, and since they are a prey animal it makes sense that they would be very sensitive to pressure.

It doesn't work very well on my Danes, they just think it's a game. However, I am very familiar with the adolescent assholeness you describe in Sofa. I agree with the other commenters that you don't want it to become a habit. Generally I use a double edged approach: manage resources as much as possible so that it is very clear to the dog that you need no help at all in "protecting" them - this mostly applies to jealousy-type situations.

For other things, keep a spray bottle or something else handy that you can use to distract him when he first starts to go after another dog. The trick is to find something that won't scare the other dogs.

The ideal option is to let him get his clock cleaned by a dog who won't hurt him, but won't suffer fools either. But you don't always have access to a dog who is that savvy.

It is possible that the free-for-all situations are a little more stimulation than he can handle right now. He may need more structured exercise and socialization for a few months. But this too will pass, as long as he isn't allowed to be too successful at it.

Flo said...

"he responds to it like an Aussie - he runs AT me, bounces off my chest or face, and then takes off again, with The Flamboyance waiving in the breeze. :) Little orange bastard!!!"

I laughed so hard I cried. That's an awesome description, I can almost see him catching air, aiming for your torso, with the Flamboyance floating behind him. :D

Huis said...

The pressure thing is really interesting. Not something I would have thought of in the context of dogs - it's a technique I've used with horses!

I used to have a horse who just liked being out in the field and wasn't always inclined to let himself be caught. When he did that I would stalk him, not intense enough to get him running (because he enjoyed that), but just so that he couldn't graze calmly and therefore wasn't having any fun. It took an hour the first time, but he learned pretty quickly that if he wasn't going to be able to eat, he might as well come over and hit me up for a treat.

Anonymous said...

maybe you should be a border collie consultant! I'll pay you ... seriously...i've been having issues with my 3yr old female border collie taking off to the neighbors (they have 3 young kids that love to play fetch with her) We will be doing farm chores - which she loves then she will go to take off, I call her, she turns, looks at me, sticks out her tongue, and keeps going! So frustrating! And the neighbors is over the river and through the woods...

Janice in GA said...


No help on the recall or the assholiness of Sofa, except to say that my first thoughts of Liam were that he was having WAY too much fun running away from owner, and that needed to stop. But y'all have got that covered.

I apologize of someone else has mentioned this previously in comments (I don't normally follow comments). On my Aussie list today, I saw this, and thought of Piper.
"Please assist Dr. Furrow with her study on the syndrome of Exercise-Induced Collaps (EIC)in Border Collies by completing the survey on the link at the bottom of this letter."
And the bit that caught my eye:

"In order to investigate the collapse syndrome in these breeds, we are requesting questionnaires from any Border Collies or Australian Shepherds that have exhibited an episode of collapse during exercise. DNA samples (blood samples preferred) and pedigrees would also be extremely helpful with our research."

The survey itself appears to be a Word doc that you download and fill in and send back.

Love the blog, throw a ball for the dogs for me. I've had Aussies for 15 years now, and love the herding dog temperament.

Shasta said...

Hmmm, I wonder if that recall/pressure thing would work on my terrier mix. If he's not fenced in or on a leash, he takes off like he's been shot out of a cannon. One time I did manage to corner him between two houses and a fence, and he dropped like a stone, though. Veddy interesting. I might give it a try!

The Border Collies said...

"And neuter The Sofa NEXT WEEK!

Oh my, the Sofa was neutered many moons ago. He is a rescue, and he was adopted from a Dobe rescue in WA State, so he was neutered when he got here. No worries there!

"Do you have any suggestions that have worked with Woo and his recall?"

Oh yes - what has worked with Wootie is a combination of recall games and LOTS of food rewards, and tons of practice. Wootie LOVES food, so we played recall games everywhere in the world - the living room, agility class, friends' houses, the park ... and then I started giving him food rewards for fetching the Wootie Toy etc., so me waving a toy at him is a precursor to him receiving food. He is still not 100% but Wootie doesn't run away - if he does ignore me, I only have to start going after him and as soon as he notices me, I take off in the other direction and he comes for his food. Really, compared to many of the dogs I see, his recall is pretty good. Compared to my other dogs, his recall is not so good though! ha!

"Please assist Dr. Furrow with her study on the syndrome of Exercise-Induced Collaps (EIC)in Border Collies by completing the survey on the link at the bottom of this letter."

Oh I will go check that out and see if I can help! Thanks so much!

painted_ponies said...

Not to worry about the Sofa. He's just being a normal adolescent Doberman boy. I find the best way to deal with growing-boy-posturing is to repeat "this too shall pass" silently to myself until the dog reaches maturity.

Janet said...

I'm guessing that walking down a dog means that on some level they have to be paying enough attention to you to be aware of your existence. My bc, Seamus, has the amazing ability to completely shut me out when he's doing something really fun, like stealing another dog's toy. It is possible that if I took him to Trout Lake in the morning, and there were enough dogs for him to play with all day, it would be dark before he would again realize that I was there and allow himself to be caught. The way we "recall" him is always about redirecting his attention to a more valuable activity- in his case- agility type training. If we can get his attention, we direct him to jump a bench, walk a log, or go around several trees, or through our legs, and eventually, "place" which means he lies down on a bench. Then he is catchable. Key is to catch and release him a few times with lots of praise so he doesn't think we are the enders of fun. I used to walk down my horses- it worked really well. I've tried it on Seamus, but it hasn't been successful if there are distractions around... then again, I've always given up after the first hour...

MalaysianFan said...

Maybe Koa is getting in touch with his ancestry? You probably know this, but Dobies were originally Tax-hounds.

Herr Dobermann was the tax collector in his German town. When the locals saw him approaching the house, they loosed their dogs on him. He began his own selective breeding program to develop an intelligent, agile, strong, protective dog to accompany him on his rounds.

Maybe, just maybe, if other dog-owners were to pay their daily "dog park tax" to you or Mr. Pickles, the Sofa would cease and desist??? :-)

nickelsmum said...

The AKC breed standard for Dobermans states: "Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handler, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness."

It is not at all uncommon to find dog-reactivity or aggression in this breed. Also, since the breed was bred to guard, resource guarding is something that can pop up very easily.

Personally I'd stop taking the Sofa to dog parks at this point. His recall is nowhere near good enough to be able to keep him out of trouble. He's at an impressionable age and has already figured out that growling and snarling makes many other dogs go away from his stuff. I think Buzz's Food Lady is right on -- keep it from becoming a habit. If he resource guards reasonably from other dogs (grumbling, they settle it without excessive drama) I would not intervene as this is so normal and most interventions make it worse. I have just seen a whole slew of clients who have systematically and unintentionally taught their dogs to bite while guarding something.

By the way, as the person belonging to a BC who has a pretty well developed recall refusal behavior (and it is clearly a deliberate refusal, not lack of understanding), I have had the same experience with walking her down. I almost never recommend it to clients and I was interested to read your breed specific description of why it works. I can actually think of many Aussies it would work on... they vary widely in their sensitivity to pressure. It IS a "negative" -- it is technically negative reinforcement, which is what all pressure and release is, and this always involves applying an aversive. That doesn't make it bad nor is it necessarily traumatic. But it has to be done the way you describe, emotionlessly, almost in a machinelike way. Which can be hard when you are huffing up a steep slope without your sunglasses, dripping sweat, dreaming of ways to skin and cook your scrawny little Border Collie, etc etc.

Robin from OK said...

Came over here from Pioneer Woman.

Your pix are just beautiful and the captions...I have laughed my ass off:-)

Love the dogs...I actually love Aussie's (i love ANY animal pretty much).

You have a way with the camera!

Hornblower said...

The pressure/release thing is interesting. Brenda Aloff's new book/DVD set Get Connected with your Dog is all about the pressure/release mechanism. I recall she got a lot of flack in some positive training circles for 'straying from the dogma' but it's a language dogs understand very well. She has some interesting techniques in that book for dealing with common problems.

Too bad the recall walking down method probably won't work on my birdy english setter. I guess I'll be sticking with the 'really reliable recall' method.

Lynnek42 said...

"You all were so helpful with the recall issue, maybe you have some insights for Mr. Pickles.

Who needs to GET OUT OF THE SHOT, PICKLES!! Yeesh. He's as bad as Tweed!"

Ah, but we LIKE seeing Mr. Pickles :)

And, the walk-down method works with horses too. Used it all of the time. Like your "pressure" description.

Arwen said...

That photo of Cashew REALLY wants to be a 'Serious dog. He's bloody serious' type dog macro :-)

Anonymous said...

Oooh I am so jealous you get to go to a stockdog trial. Say hi to Dana (one of the judges) for me (actually for Cinder, Dana has always loved judging Cinder in the stockdog trials and has taken multiple pix of her over the years. And even if Cin is a blue merle and does ASCA trials she IS a border collie!) Dana is a lovely kind lady...

Hmmm...wonder if Joan Holmes will be there? If she is, and she has a pup - TAKE IT HOME!! I love her dogs!

HA HA HA - my confirmation word is "tater" - the name for your new pup perhaps????

doberkim said...

as one of the other posters commented, in the dobe breed this isn't uncommon. in MOST households male dobes, as they age, become fairly intolerant of other male dogs. my 4 year old male (who is titled up the wazoo - this isn't a training issue) at 1 year old was perfect dog park material. at 2 he would not tolerate rude young males challenging him, and now past 3 years old he will not even allow a hard stare from most males without wanting to respond. with commands he can "leave it", and ignore them - but he is NOT put in dog park situations at all. with dogs he knows he can play with them - but put a male playing too roughly with him in a dog park situation and he will have that male on the ground within seconds.

most responsible rescues and breeders as general rule do not place males in homes with other existing males (of pretty much any breed), because of the intersex aggression issues.

is there a behavioral component? yes - my males are expected to behave around other males, mind their manners, pay attention, etc. but in no circumstance do i expect them to run loose with other male dogs at all. for me, its an accident waiting to happen.

Lexi, Qwill, Shiner and Trophy said...

from doberkim:
"most responsible rescues and breeders as general rule do not place males in homes with other existing males (of pretty much any breed), because of the intersex aggression issues."

i find it odd that you mention this, as I have only had experience with intersex aggression (in all S/N animals) with FEMALE dogs.

Granted my experince is with mostly border collies, but not all.

Perhaps you mean to say that responsible doberman breeders/rescuers will not place two male dobes together? I only bring this up because when adopting any of my dogs (all MALES - 5 of them to be exact), intersex aggression was never brought up.

just wondering :)

The Border Collies said...

i find it odd that you mention this, as I have only had experience with intersex aggression (in all S/N animals) with FEMALE dogs.

Granted my experince is with mostly border collies, but not all.

I'm with you! I have always had multiple males, and only one bitch at a time, because in my experience ... they don't call them bitches for nuthin'!!

I find that male/female pairings, or male/male pairings (neutered) are the best and most successful combination, but that female-female pairings can be bad news. Males fight for ritual, females fight to injure! When my two bitches got into it once years ago, they put 20 holes apiece in one another in under 30 seconds. Whereas my males squabbled and almost never did damage. And now, Piper does not ALLOW fighting between the boys ;-)

doberkim said...

no, what im saying is that dobe rescues/breeders typically don't care if the other dogs in the house aren't dobes :) some people justify it because other breed is golden/lab/chi/etc... male dobes that get snarky with other males don't seem to care if its another dobe they are with.

nickelsmum said...

I think when doberkim said "intersex" she meant "same-sex aggression." IME this risk varies by breed and depending on which breed we are talking about, it might be worse with males or with females. A lot of terriers are considered at higher risk for same-sex aggression, especially intermale. With bitches, I think it's a bit less breed-dependent, and if it happens it is a bad thing. I have two bitches and they are just fine, but I would not want to have to introduce another bitch into my house. However, I have herding breed dogs which I think have the bitchiest bitches. A LOT of BC bitches have Mad Teeth (tm).

I would hope, but not assume or expect, that the Sofa's issue is a passing phase.

Dunedan said...

It's possible that Sofa had a negative association with the dog park during a Fear Period and he's acting out because of fear.

not sure how old he is, but if he's young, then that's a possibility. it's a really tough thing to predict when the fear imprint periods are going to hit, and even tougher for a dog that has a routine to take them out of it until it passes.

just a thought...

Amy and the little black dog said...

Hey food lady, was nice to meet you at ASC of BC, but i'm sorry your drive was so crappy!! maybe next year?